Commercial Real Estate Investing Using AI with Shayne Skaff of Blooma

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Shayne Skaff 0:00
There’s obviously lots of ideas floating out there. I have lots of ideas all the time. And, you know, generally I need to work through them from a commercialization and a product decision perspective. So to say, hey, is a really a market out there for what I’m thinking about. And once I have validated that, then I kind of jumped in with both feet.

Alexander Ferguson 0:27
Welcome to UpTech Report. This is our Applied Tech series. UpTech Report is sponsored by TaraLeap. Learn how to leverage the power of video at teraleap.io. Today, I’m excited to be joined by my guest, Shayne Skaff, who’s based in San Diego, California. He’s the CEO at Blooma. Welcome, Shayne. Good to have you on.

Shayne Skaff 0:44
Thanks, Alexander. Thanks for having me.

Alexander Ferguson 0:46
Now, Blooma is an underwriting platform powered by AI for the commercial real estate space. Help me understand Shayne, what was the problem that you guys set out? You and your co founders set out to solve? What was that problem?

Shayne Skaff 1:00
Yeah, well, my co founder is the chairman and founder of a bank here in San Diego called AVP. Capital gentleman by the name of Michael Purcell. And he came to me in January of 2018, to really kind of find out what was happening in and around to kind of innovation for originating commercial real estate loans. Was there any software products out there that that he could plug into to help him monitor how he manages his existing loan portfolio? I have not traditionally operated in that in that space. I’m a career technologist. So I’ve spent my career building AI and ML platforms. But I spent the next few months kind of looking at who was doing what in that space, so that I could come back and intelligently have a conversation with him about kind of where I thought the market was, and in terms of innovating within the commercial lending space.

Alexander Ferguson 1:56
Yeah. Okay. Well, we’ll come back to again, how you guys are solving that challenge with commercial lending. But I’m curious, a bit more on on your journey. You said you, you’re used to being in the tech space using AI and ML, you had a company? Maintenance net, is that correct? Yeah. Before you hit that 12 years, which was acquired by Cisco in 2015. Well, what was was that the beginning of your entrepreneurial journey?

Shayne Skaff 2:18
Um, more or less? Yeah. In the in the tech space? I mean, I prior to that, you know, I went through the mid to late 90s. Selling technology infrastructure for for a couple of different companies. But yeah, I launched maintenance net know for, originally, that really help companies automate how they manage and transacted annuity. So automate, how they renewed service agreements, how they renewed software, license agreements and such. And so our platform basically told them, which of their clients had the highest propensity to renew, the machine would automate quotes out to those clients and get them to renew without talking to people. Hmm,

Alexander Ferguson 3:00
that that will be powerful for the sales team. That makes no sense why you built that coming from the sales background, you probably were doing that at these companies like there’s got to be a better way to automate this.

Shayne Skaff 3:09
Yeah, it was more from a perspective of, you know, salespeople don’t touch like small renewals, because it just cost too much too much money. So what we did in that space is took, we, our clients were massive companies that had massive volumes of very low dollar renewals, that are for human to go after would just be too expensive, but an aggregate for a lot of these companies that represents billions of dollars of renewal revenue that can’t be ignored. But the only way to get out is with machines. And that’s why we built that but as a salesperson, when kind of the dot bomb hit, hardware margins went plummeting. And which means we were as salespeople are making less money on the products that we were selling, so I had to find a more profitable product to sell to my clients. And that was in the service arena. So selling service renewals selling software was more profitable. And so I put together a little MySQL database that would tell me when service coverages were expiring so that I could go renew it. So that was like, that was the premise for maintenance net, obviously, I once we started it, we took it a step further, which was not having me renew it but having the machine renew it on behalf of the salesperson. So it cost me less money cost the organization I was working for less money, everybody’s happy.

Alexander Ferguson 4:36
So you come from a sales background training and everything or like where did the technology piece you just were always interested in technology?

Shayne Skaff 4:44
Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I mean, I was I had a business degree. I came out of University of San Diego, basically went right into selling and right really into technology selling you know, I started my career selling digital Alpha systems. So There used to be a company called Digital Equipment Manufacturers, which got purchased by Compaq, which got purchased by HP. And yeah, I really learned the tech piece just you know, by doing in by consuming information on the job. And, you know, I’m still not I’m not a coder, I wouldn’t consider myself a technical person. I understand enough about technology to sell it.

Alexander Ferguson 5:27
If you’re because we have many SAS founders and leaders who listened to this, if you had one lesson learned of selling technology, what would that be?

Shayne Skaff 5:40
Well, mine is that I just focus on hiring people way smarter than myself. In every aspect, not just on the technology side. So yeah, because I am, I am not a scientist. I’m not an engineer, I’m not a developer. I have to work with really smart people that know that space. I know, I know where my strength is, I stay in that lane. Hiring smart people around you to do those things that you’re just, you know, not optimal at is, I think, for me has been successful for me.

Alexander Ferguson 6:13
So post acquisition, acquisition was Cisco of your first main company maintenance that, I guess you spend the next few years just advising and helping other companies? What would that look like?

Shayne Skaff 6:25
Well, I had to stay on with Cisco for a year. So I had a contract as part of the acquisition, I stayed on with them until the summer of 2016. And I pretty quickly jumped out of that, not because something just goes an amazing company. But I’m just not good at working for big, large organizations like that. I mean, there is a skill set there that, you know, I just don’t didn’t feel I had and quite frankly, just didn’t enjoy. But yeah, so my partner and I, even prior to selling Cisco set up a little venture fund that basically allowed us to make investments into early stage SaaS, b2b enterprise software companies. And so we had been making those investments. When I left Cisco, I started to take more of a of a role in that and spend a lot more time talking to companies. We then that’s more adventures, yeah. Then we started up an incubator in San Diego to really help technologists have a place to go to, to kind of work out their ideas. And that was called the sandbox San Diego. And that’s really where Mike and I brought the bloomer concept to. So we actually started building the bloomer technology in that incubator in summer of 18.

Alexander Ferguson 7:44
So first, the idea came or he said, Michael had this idea and you’re you’re incubating it, you’re kind of investing in it, but you’re not actually running it yet. At what point did you decide to jump in? And then was it already from that point? You’re like, I’m gonna run this? No, I

Shayne Skaff 7:57
mean, the way we the way I, I think about things is, you know, there’s obviously lots of ideas floating out there. I have lots of ideas all the time. And, you know, generally I need to work through them from a commercialization and a productization. perspective, so to say, hey, is a really a market out there for what I’m thinking about? And once I have validated that, then I kind of jumped in with both feet. And so with with with Bluma, yeah, I mean, I, Mike and I had been talking for six months, and I had been kind of working out the productization and commercialization of what I thought we could build. So I talked to banks, multiple banks about what we wanted to build locally here. In fact, a couple banks up in LA. And then it wasn’t until I had enough validation, that what we were thinking about doing was going to be acceptable, by, you know, multiple folks that that I had surveyed. That’s what that’s when we decided to jump in. And so I kind of got kind of verbal commitments, if you will, that said, Hey, Shayne, yeah, if you could build something that automated, how we do pre flight on commercial loan origination, I would buy that right. And then it wasn’t. And then once we had that validation, then I jumped in the summer of 18. We started to build the platform. I took some of my folks out of Cisco, that had worked for me on the product side on the development side, and when we started to build a platform

Alexander Ferguson 9:30
I’ll be frank, loan origination is not very sexy. What What got you excited? Like what what’s driving you in this business?

Shayne Skaff 9:40
Well, Alexander, neither is maintenance or service contract renewals. So

Alexander Ferguson 9:44
that is true. That is very true.

Shayne Skaff 9:47
What you know, it’s so it is funny because I mean, what I think is sexy is solving something that is really difficult, right? I mean, and on input on both of those businesses, maintenance renewal under license renewal, there’s just there’s still so much room to run over there. I mean, I thought about, you know, should I go back and do that space, right, but I was a little bit burnt out on that space. But for those out there that want to do something that’s been, it’s a greenfield still, so we’ll have that. So yeah, it’s like, you know, when I was looking at what was happening in lending in general, specific to real estate, I looked at what what the residential space was doing. And in fact, because I interface with that space, more just through my own activity, buying homes selling homes, and I felt like the residential space was more than a decade ahead of commercial real estate. And to me, that was a huge aha moment. Because it, if I looked at the resi space, and I saw nothing, I’m I might have, I would have probably thought, You know what, it’s still too early. Like it the the the market is not ready to buy this type of product. But when I saw that what was happening on the rescue side, I like, you know what, like, they’re 10 years ahead, like, we need the commercial, commercial space is ready. And so, you know, I got real excited and I looked at the the organizations that were buying innovation on the resi side, then massive commercial real estate businesses, which told me that there’s just a lack of product in the marketplace. And so the combination of those two things just really got me super excited, and why I spent my summer of 18, just starting to build and we built all through 18, and all the way through 19. And we didn’t launch our commercial product until January of 2020.

Alexander Ferguson 11:46
Oh, interesting, which circus has been a good full year and a half, two years, just focus on building the product, which is funny to me, as a salesperson, I feel like you’d be ready, like, let’s sell, like, let’s get it out there.

Shayne Skaff 11:58
Well, I’m always selling, but you know, during that process, you’re selling on what we’re doing. So that you can come out of it with with, you know, with with with bookings. And so,

Alexander Ferguson 12:08
can you share a tactic on that on that one? Particularly how, what is a good way to build up your waitlist? Like, what were you doing tactically?

Shayne Skaff 12:16
Yeah, I mean, I was, so a lot of those banks that I was serving, like pre product, or our first customers, right. So they, they gave us real, wonderful access. Some of them, you know, a couple of them, literally, were part of our product team, they gave us access to their underwriters. So before we started coding, even at all, we had access to underwriters that helped us map out all of the manual activity that went into originating a new commercial real estate loan, auditing a current loan portfolio and so forth. We model all that out. And then we brought in the product team and developers said, Okay, what pieces of this can the machine take over? To really move the people to their art of their job? You know, we don’t ever look at technology, you know, AI ml or anything else, as a means to replace people, we really look at it as a means to do more with the people that you have, right? So everybody looks at it as a as a cost takeout? And it certainly is. But what eventually happens is the customer see it as more of a an uplift in production, with the same headcount that they have. And so yeah, during that time, I was talking to banks, you know, and I, every time I could get introduced to a new bank, I would tell them the story about this is what we’re building, you know, and the product, this is where the products that and, you know, we’re looking at a commercial launch in January. And so by the time, January 2020, came around, I had already had been talking to lots of banks, most of my, the banks were the banks in my network, which are, you know, big national banks. And, and then we had, we jumped right into discussions, you know, obviously, the pandemic hit, which was a massive, you know, blow. But we had a, we, during, from March, through most of 2020, we sold mostly on portfolio monitoring, because these banks were now thinking like, how is this new environment going to impact my current loan portfolio? And because we’re doing this continuous monitoring of the loans of the assets and their loan, we could actually tell them what was happening with that loan portfolio. And essentially, you know, we a lot of the most of the clients, we signed in 2020, I had already been talking to in 19, before we even had a product built. Hmm,

Alexander Ferguson 14:36
interesting. Okay, so let’s take a second and switch over to the tech piece for a moment knowing you’re not a technical person, but you know, the technology to be able to sell it. How they understand, like, just let’s dive a little bit a little bit deep into how does it work? Why does it work? Where’s the value?

Shayne Skaff 14:53
Yeah, I mean, like, it’s, you know, you know, people think AI and machine learning is magic, and they also think win win. When they see an AI platform, they think it’s like all AI, right. And so artificial intelligence and machine learning generally are scary to highly regulated environments like commercial banking, right? We’re using a, we’re only using artificial intelligence and two pieces of our product. One is in our we read documents. So you know, we allow clients on the front end of origination, they can upload, offer memorandums, broker packages, unit mix, rent rolls, p&l, we wrote all the models to read, read those packages. And then the second place is that when they’re interfacing with rent, comparable sales comparables within the platform, they’re actually training the machine on what’s important that to them, for the various asset classes that they’re looking for comparables on. Those are really the two spaces where we’re using artificial intelligence, the AI is not making a decision for the client or for the bank, it’s literally helping them have information for them to quickly make the right decisions for, for their organization. And so that that’s where we’re using AI. And you know, the rest is around, you know, automation through a wonderful user interface, which we’ve built. You know, we’ve taken all of these point solutions that exist within lending, like data gathering on comparables, like cash flow analyses, and valuation. And like OCR tools, we just bundled all of that within the Bluma framework. So now, they have one spot to go to do a lot of different activities,

Alexander Ferguson 16:35
the concept and technology of reading a document using and understand what’s in a document is not, it’s not new, and honestly, if you saw a lot of solutions out there, but it’s, it’s how you’ve wrapped it up into the UI, it’s the experience that you’re providing tailored specifically to commercial loan.

Shayne Skaff 16:55
It’s the it’s the Yeah, it’s the platform, and the UI is really the user experience and how they, how they experience the technology that you’ve built, right, the AI helps bring information together, you know, we have models within the platform that helps to take that information. And we obviously have the ability to calculate and provide results that our customers can look at, and then make decisions around. So yeah, it’s how you wrap that all together, that is really the power, because wonderful technology that doesn’t allow people to make, like really quick decisions generally just stinks. Right? You know, so so we we, we want to produce something for the users that is easy to understand and quick to react on.

Alexander Ferguson 17:48
This underlying tech, it feels like there’s there’s it’s becoming a staple, in some ways, are you guys utilizing a lot of the existing solutions that are out there and just being able to play in new ways?

Shayne Skaff 18:00
I mean, in some spaces, I mean, we’re, I’m, I’m a big believer in buy versus build. So you know, shortening product market, time is super important. And so as you said, OCR, so on the borrower guarantor side, you know, we can read bank statements, tax returns, K ones, but those technologies are have been out there for a long time. And they’re getting better and better and better, why would I go and reinvent the wheel there? Right. So we generally look for the best companies in categories, and where we can buy or license we will and in that case, you know, we license a tool to read those that that side of the house. Yeah, the

Alexander Ferguson 18:43
loan originators those, those these individuals, these companies, these banks, what were they using before you is was there not a solution for this space?

Shayne Skaff 18:51
Um, they’re, like I said, there’s multiple solutions, but they’re all point solutions. So, you know, today, you know, you’ve got a lot of these guys going from a data perspective, they go to, you know, a data provider, like, like costar to pull comparables, or, and they’ve got their Excel spreadsheets to do their modeling. And then they have a different tool to do the cash flow analysis and, and then a different tool to do the spreading of tax return. So there’s all of these point solutions. So yeah, there’s, there’s all kinds of solutions out there, but nobody’s really bringing all of them together into a platform that allows a user one interface to work out of, and then that interface can deliver the resulting information back to internal systems that need that data. So for instance, like, you know, our clients, a lot of them have loan origination systems that they’re working in, they can continue to work in those LMS systems, we can actually identify when a deal comes in, do all of the analysis that we do and then push the data back into that system that their underwriters or analysts are currently working in, right? Makes it super easy. Easy, we don’t have to break process, there’s no forklifting of one software system to put in our system. So the way we built our platform, and you know, we’re we’re in a, AWS, the way we built our platform, it makes it easy to plug in to systems that exist within our customer base today.

Alexander Ferguson 20:20
Obviously, you’re somewhat bias, but with this COVID And push to remote work and people like, are we going to read up on our leases, etc? and thoughts? How does, how do you see that affecting the commercial side of loans? And because I’m assuming real estate, commercial real estate is one big piece with when it comes to commercial loans?

Shayne Skaff 20:42
Yeah, I mean, we and we, we see all asset classes going through our system. And I mean, I can tell you, you know, the things that you would assume are happening are like, you know, hospitality has gotten crushed, and it continues to be super difficult, but like multifamily, and industrial, I mean, even in q3 of 2020, we saw, we saw it starting to come back pretty, pretty hardcore, and it’s now it’s like, amazing. I mean, there’s, you know, multifamily industrial is, is super hot. So yeah, I think I don’t even I think office space is going to come back. I mean, you know, I think people initially thought and I was like, Oh my God, what’s gonna happen with with office space, and are people gonna go back to the office? I think as, as COVID continued to last people are like, I can’t wait to get back to the office. I know, like, we moved into a new office, you know, just recently, and our people, you know, we’re not fully back in, but people can’t wait to get back and, and be around one another. So I don’t think it’s going to have the dramatic impact that everybody thought it was at the beginning of COVID. I think the work environment is going to change the way office space is utilized is going to change. But I think there’s going to still be continue to be a high demand for office space, I think hospitality is going to come back. It’s just, you know, that’s gonna come back, as we start to see, you know, delta and some of these, you know, whatever else is coming down the pipe, you know, subsided a bit. And I think, you know, I think hospitality will also the, this this commercial, real estate’s the second largest asset class in the world, right. So, it’s, you know, it’s not a matter of when things are gonna start happening again, and deals are gonna start flowing through all asset classes. It’s just a matter of when,

Alexander Ferguson 22:34
yeah, got it that account when you said, you got a new office, the team for your team, most of them are in that area. How big is the team?

Shayne Skaff 22:42
Yeah, we’ve got, we’ve got an office in in, in Israel, which we do a lot of our back end development in. We’ve got an office in Austin, which is another kind of technical center for us. Most of the folks are here in San Diego. And then we got a couple of remote sales folks around the country. But yeah, we’re about 25 people now.

Alexander Ferguson 23:04
Got it got it Gotcha. For you, when you kind of look forward in this space to make any predictions, tech predictions on technology being applied to the commercial loan space, anything you can imagine coming in five years, three, four or five years, I think expect?

Shayne Skaff 23:24
I think that I think what’s happening, I feel like what is happening is that, you know, lenders, commercial lenders, private lenders, I think, folks that have not traditionally focused on innovation, are now kind of really starting to look at how to do things differently. You know, I think within, especially in the commercial banks, you’ve got these monolithic systems that aren’t so friendly, to talk to outside systems, I think people are moving more towards building out their kind of data core, and allowing these kind of ancillary systems that are needed to run the bank efficiently to feed out feed into and out of that data core, rather than to have like this big system that is a green screen that’s super difficult to work with. And so that’s why we built Bluma the way we have, you know, we’ve built it on microservices, where, you know, even for ourselves, we have to subscribe, we subscribe to different pieces within our platform so that they talk to one another. And, and that’s what we’re doing within our customer base. So we want to be able to talk to systems that they have that need the results of our analysis and need the data that we have to go back into the system so that they can do other things with it. And I think that’s really where we’re banking in general is is going to and I’m having lots of discussions with some of the largest banks in the world. And every one of them has some, you know, massive implementation going on within their technology stack. And, and so I think it’s gonna move more towards this kind of nimble A place where we can buy solutions for specific uses, and have all of those systems kind of talk to one another.

Alexander Ferguson 25:07
Hmm, a global ecosystem of different systems talking to each other. Bluma why the name,

Shayne Skaff 25:17
um, you know, we kind of look at that lending and specifically and kind of real estate lending as, like the seeding of, of a building or, or the, the, the renovation of a building the new construction of a building like, and that’s really how kind of this Bluma came about. I don’t even remember who mentioned it first, but

Alexander Ferguson 25:44
switching gears a little bit, you as a, as a leader, you have a successful track record here, great a sales role startup and grows, it gets acquired now, run a nice little fund, and then now you’re running your next one. If you had to think of what has contributed to your success, maybe like the top two or three things that have contributed to your success so far, what would that be?

Shayne Skaff 26:12
I mean, the top thing is the people that that I’ve surrounded myself with, I mean, without them, you know, I would have nothing. So you know, I just have such amazing, an amazing network around me, got people that have worked with me, and for me for you know, a decade or more. That’s, that’s still are with me. I think, you know, curiosity, is the reason why I keep doing things. I am, you know, I’m a curious person. And I like, I like to figure out how to build technology to make people’s lives better. And yes, it’s not, it’s not a sexy space, it’s generally not in a sexy space. I mean, you know, sexy spaces, you’ve got 100 people trying to work on those, right? It’s like, yeah, there’s almost nobody that wants to go in, and do anything in banking for all the reasons that you and I know. Yeah. And, and, yeah, and then, you know, what the third is just, you know, I have fun doing it. I mean, if I, if I didn’t, I would, I just, I couldn’t do it. It’s too difficult, then, you know, launching businesses, you know, funding businesses, it’s, you know, it’s not like a straight line, it never ends. And so unless you have, you can have fun doing it. And you can put everything in perspective. Of course, it’s, you know, it’s not something that that I would do, if I didn’t feel good about it.

Alexander Ferguson 27:39
A lot of business leaders listen to our series as well. Time management, that’s another big thing of how do you manage your time? And are you a family married?

Shayne Skaff 27:50
Yeah. I mean, yeah, time management is a big one. You know, as I’ve gotten older, you know, I’ve, I think it’s more about prioritization, right? When it comes to time management. So I’ve got three kids, you know, I’ve got a 15 year old girl, a 13 year old girl and a four year old boy. And I’ve been married for 20 years to a wonderful Swedish woman. I mean, that’s my priority. So you know, making sure that I’m doing everything for them first, is absolutely top of mine. And then again, the rat, the On the work front, it really becomes a again about the people like I couldn’t, there’s no way I could operate. Everything that I do without substandard people around me, it just it couldn’t happen. And so you know, that’s, that’s really how I do time management. I’ve got, you know, great people that know how to do their job. So I don’t have to spend the time doing it. If I have to tell somebody, everything they should be doing. They’re the wrong person in the wrong position. I rarely have to do that. I mean, in fact, most of the time, I’ve got people telling me what, you know what I need to be doing. So it’s like, I love it, you know, I want to be the one being pushed, rather than being the pusher.

Alexander Ferguson 29:06
Hmm. You’re this a second time. Third time that you’ve referenced the the power of people that has played in in your success. I need some wisdom. I share some wisdom here of like, it sounds like you’ve hired the perfect people the entire time. And they’ve just you just had success all the way through. I mean, can you share any lessons learned when it comes to hiring the right people? Yeah,

Shayne Skaff 29:28
I mean, I definitely isn’t the case. You know, I’ve hired lots of the wrong people, which isn’t to say they were bad people. You know, in many cases, I’ve hired people that I shouldn’t have, because I basically forced them in the wrong position that they they shouldn’t have been in. I’ve made you know, I’ve hired you know, family members, I’ve hired friends who don’t currently is that a good idea? And I know there are other people that say, oh, yeah, working with family friends is wonderful. It’s if you can get it right. I can see how it It’s amazing. But yeah, you know, it’s that part has, you know has rarely gone gone right for me. But yeah, for me, it’s a, I think I’ve gotten better at really seeing what people enjoy doing, and what they should be doing. And then putting them in exactly that position, I think early on as an entrepreneur, you just want to get people in and hope that they do well in that position, rather than say, yeah, they’re applying for this position. I can see they’ve done it before. But are they really? Do they really have the personality? Or do they know enough about what themselves to think that they can actually pull this off? And I think I’ve got, you know, I’ve gotten pretty good at my age, to actually see that you just because somebody wants to do something doesn’t mean that they’re the person that should be doing it. That makes sense.

Alexander Ferguson 30:58
Yeah. It just because they there there is, I feel like there’s a multitude of stories within each of the statements you just shared with family members and friends and people that you shouldn’t hire. For you, kind of going forward from here. What are you most excited about? Like it? Whether it’s, you want to talk about Luma, the roadmap there or just for you personally or in technology? What are you most excited about?

Shayne Skaff 31:23
I mean, you know, Bluma is like we’ve got a Greenfield, it is there it is so wide open, there’s so much that needs to be done, just within the commercial real estate space. And so I see this field, I’m just, I’m super excited about it. And yes, there’s competition. And yes, there’s like big companies that are building these lol systems. And everybody asked me, like, you know, are you worried about them competing with you, and I’m less worried about these guy, these big, big companies than I am about, you know, the two people that are sitting in a dorm room, you know, you know, in some dark place somewhere, you know, those are the folks that I’m like, looking for right. But yeah, I’m I love the opportunity. I love what’s what’s sitting out there. I’m excited about the other folks that I know around me that are doing things in different spaces and and just the the amount of innovation that’s happening in spaces that are long overdue, is super, super exciting. So yeah, I’m glad to be a part of it.

Alexander Ferguson 32:26
For those that want to learn more about Blooma and exciting things that they are doing there, you can go to Blooma.ai That’s BLOOMA.AI Thank you, Shayne, for your time and sharing the journey that you’ve been on the excitement and passion for potentially those might see interesting industry and where you’re headed has been awesome.

Shayne Skaff 32:45
Thanks, Alexander. I’ve had a great time.

Alexander Ferguson 32:47
I will see you all on the next episode of UpTech Report. Have you seen a company using AI machine learning or other technology to transform the way we live work and do business? Go to UpTech report.com and let us know